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Matt_the_Hed
04-04-2010, 10:03 PM
One of the things that gets in the way of productive discussion of what people believe is our different understandings of the core words used. Words like belief, faith and religion.
Let me offer my humble submission how we can use these words in the context of these forums.
A belief is a particular tenet or aspect of a system of beliefs.
A religion is an established set of beliefs.
Beliefs donít automatically have anything to do with God but the word religion is used to distinguish the nature of a set of beliefs.
Itís important to make these distinctions because the reality is we all believe something and and we are all religious.
No matter what you believe about spiritual matters, you subscribe to a system a of beliefs. It may be a mainstream widely held and organized system like the Catholic Church or a patch work of pieces from different systems you have personally hung together.
An over simplified understanding of the main tenet of Atheism is a belief that there is no deity of any kind. This is a spiritual belief and a religion. It also something that is held in conviction with out irrefutable evidence.
Now there is a third piece of this puzzle and another word that needs to be defined, faith.
Faith is the X-factor. It is more than an intellectual choice to believe something that may or may not be true it is a life defining trust in that thing. If you truly have faith, your life reflects it. Regardless of what you are trusting in, you arenít trusting if it isnít shaping and directing you.
Thatís probably enough to get started...

daCooksta
04-04-2010, 10:05 PM
I'll be honest: what are you trying to inspire with this?

Jitterbug
04-04-2010, 10:13 PM
All good points, and I agree with everything you have written here. I'd be interested in hearing if anyone has any point that they would like to contend, but I think what you have written is something that most of us could agree with. Now, if you want to get REALLY dicey we could start discussing the origins of faith, but maybe we'll leave that for another thread!!

Jitterbug
04-04-2010, 10:14 PM
I'll be honest: what are you trying to inspire with this?

The Hed is our ship's Pastor.

Think of him as Book from Firefly. He's huddled up in a nest of non-believers, hucksters, and pirates - but he does his best to impart wisdom along the way.

Cam-Dog
04-04-2010, 10:37 PM
So wait... you dont have diarrhea? I was looking forward to a diarrhea story that may or may not include sex and beer.

daCooksta
04-04-2010, 11:17 PM
The Hed is our ship's Pastor.

Think of him as Book from Firefly. He's huddled up in a nest of non-believers, hucksters, and pirates - but he does his best to impart wisdom along the way.

Hm. Catch-22 did that first.

I don't disagree with anything he's said, I just couldn't tell what the point was. For the record, I'm a Christian. However, I prefer to avoid Internet debate on religion due to the nonbelievers and believers being equally steadfast in their respective faiths. However, if someone needed to talk about a religious issue, I'd listen. Listening is much better than debating or arguing when it comes to stuff.

Jitterbug
04-04-2010, 11:20 PM
Hm. Catch-22 did that first.

I don't disagree with anything he's said, I just couldn't tell what the point was. For the record, I'm a Christian. However, I prefer to avoid Internet debate on religion due to the nonbelievers and believers being equally steadfast in their respective faiths. However, if someone needed to talk about a religious issue, I'd listen. Listening is much better than debating or arguing when it comes to stuff.

You're like SOOO fucking wrong. lol
http://www.orlandoweekly.com/blog/images/star-wars-anonymous-rebel-pilot-sees-what-u-did-there.jpg

daCooksta
04-04-2010, 11:28 PM
You're like SOOO fucking wrong. lol
http://www.orlandoweekly.com/blog/images/star-wars-anonymous-rebel-pilot-sees-what-u-did-there.jpg

Oh, my bad. You know How we crazy religious types can be. Btw, thanks for the shoutout! I just now listened to the episode. And so you know, I came across it via kiddiepool's twitter.

Matt_the_Hed
04-04-2010, 11:48 PM
I feel like sometimes the word religious is used to describe a Christian specifically and I wanted to get away from that idea, number one. Second while you might agree with what I said, I was proposing some definitions for dialougue that might not be agreed upon and would like hear other understandings of those words. Third I think it's interesting that we all believe something and that's worth exploring.

The title was from Nacho Libre, sorry no sex and beer.

Firefly kicks ass.

Choopy
04-05-2010, 03:57 AM
I think the hard thing about faith is that it requires you to believe in something that you can't see, touch, or physically define. And sometimes can't justify based on personal experiences.
That's where I have a hard time.
I have a set of beliefs. (religion) But I have a hard time changing them or following a set of beliefs that is 'foreign' to my life experiences because someone says so based on something I can't definitively prove to exist.

daCooksta
04-05-2010, 06:18 AM
I feel like sometimes the word religious is used to describe a Christian specifically and I wanted to get away from that idea, number one. Second while you might agree with what I said, I was proposing some definitions for dialougue that might not be agreed upon and would like hear other understandings of those words. Third I think it's interesting that we all believe something and that's worth exploring.

The title was from Nacho Libre, sorry no sex and beer.

Firefly kicks ass.

Ah, I see. Sorry, didn't mean to come off as a douche!

Matt_the_Hed
04-05-2010, 07:20 AM
But I have a hard time changing them or following a set of beliefs that is 'foreign' to my life experiences because someone says so based on something I can't definitively prove to exist.

I think that personal experience is crucial. It was personal experience that led to my beliefs, words played a part but Faith is an experiential exercise. As a Christian I point to the Bible as an example. The Bible isn't a manuel with instructions as much as it is a collection of experiences that illustrate what we believe. The only real "proof" we can discover is our experience.

Matt_the_Hed
04-05-2010, 10:30 AM
Ah, I see. Sorry, didn't mean to come off as a douche!

Not at All!!
I'm just trying create discussion in general and that's what you did. Besides it is more likely than not that I'm not making any sense, so to ask for clarification is totally appreciated. So don't worry, while you very well might be a douche, it's not because of that!

Choopy
04-05-2010, 03:35 PM
The only real "proof" we can discover is our experience.

I think that is the problem for me. There is no proof. At least in a physical and scientific manner that can be recreated for others to experience. Of course one can say they feel it, I don't doubt that. It's just that I can't feel someones else's feelings.

MrsChupacabra
04-06-2010, 09:49 PM
You know, I grew up in a neighbor hood where if you weren't Mormon you couldn't play with the other kids. We also had some the Mormon's throw gas on our lawn, stick firecrackers in our mail box, and so on.
My Mother was a single Mom, she smoked, she drank, and she didn't go to church. I was told as a kid, because of all these things and my missing father I couldn't play or attend any of the birthday parties and such with all the other kids.
After a while I started going to church, I started going to the church programs, and because I didn't have a family to go with I went with the neighbors and had a bunch of guys that weren't my Dad be my Dad for all the "father and daughter" outings.
Next thing you know I was baptized, at the age of 8 and honestly had no clue what the heck was going on. I just wanted to play with all the other kids. I also was afraid out of my mind to go to hell because all my "friends" said I would.

So my point to all of this, is I don't believe in organized religion. I do believe in God! I have had times in my life where I have questioned it, maybe even doubted it. I just don't think you have to be certain religion to believe or have faith. I think it's a wonderful thing to have faith and belief in something. Whatever your choose to have faith in is your choice, but no religion should ever make you feel like you don't have a choice. I don't believe anyone or any religion should hold any judgement. We're all people and we all have made mistakes and so on.
Nobodies perfect! I don't care who you are.

Farva
04-06-2010, 11:24 PM
Nobodies perfect! I don't care who you are.

No, but I'm pretty close.

Cam-Dog
04-06-2010, 11:34 PM
You know, I grew up in a neighbor hood where if you weren't Mormon you couldn't play with the other kids. We also had some the Mormon's throw gas on our lawn, stick firecrackers in our mail box, and so on.
My Mother was a single Mom, she smoked, she drank, and she didn't go to church. I was told as a kid, because of all these things and my missing father I couldn't play or attend any of the birthday parties and such with all the other kids.
After a while I started going to church, I started going to the church programs, and because I didn't have a family to go with I went with the neighbors and had a bunch of guys that weren't my Dad be my Dad for all the "father and daughter" outings.
Next thing you know I was baptized, at the age of 8 and honestly had no clue what the heck was going on. I just wanted to play with all the other kids. I also was afraid out of my mind to go to hell because all my "friends" said I would.

So my point to all of this, is I don't believe in organized religion. I do believe in God! I have had times in my life where I have questioned it, maybe even doubted it. I just don't think you have to be certain religion to believe or have faith. I think it's a wonderful thing to have faith and belief in something. Whatever your choose to have faith in is your choice, but no religion should ever make you feel like you don't have a choice. I don't believe anyone or any religion should hold any judgement. We're all people and we all have made mistakes and so on.
Nobodies perfect! I don't care who you are.
I live in a 90% Mormon community but damn it has never been that bad, I'm sorry.
I have had a few friends try and take me to church activities most of the time i kindly decline but a few times I go along to be nice on things like camping trips a organized sports things but its never been that bad.
They are all mostly nice people and most respect my views just as I do theirs.

When I was younger I would get "picked on" a bit for having an ear ring(which I do regret and no longer have) or because I have long hair(to some of them over the ears is long) but most had the sense to not mess with me because well I'm a big guy and I dont mess around haha.

Now it seems like I'm one of the better kids compared to some of the Mormons which goes to tell you some people just dont need it. I've had Mormon Elders tell me "Well it really looks like you dont need religion and your on a better track than some of the kids who have it."

MrsChupacabra
04-07-2010, 12:01 AM
That's awesome!

You don't need religion... In my opinion. Believe in yourself. I am not saying all Mormons are the same, because that would be totally uncool to judge everyone on my own experience. I also have a lot of Mormon friends as an adult and you know what to each their own.
Where are you from? Because I have heard there's no place like Utah... as far as the way the Mormons are. In other States they are different, maybe it's something about being in Utah that does that to them.
One of my good friends is from WI and her family is LDS... to be honest they are some of the most accepting loving people.
They do have a good up bring. I like raising my boys in Utah. There is a strong family value, which I love and appreciate.
A lot of the girls and boys I grew up with spent more time rebelling the religion while looking perfect. I would whether just say, "Hey I am not perfect! I most likely will screw up" and I am the same way about my children.... after all, we are all just human :)

Cam-Dog
04-07-2010, 12:34 AM
That's awesome!

You don't need religion... In my opinion. Believe in yourself. I am not saying all Mormons are the same, because that would be totally uncool to judge everyone on my own experience. I also have a lot of Mormon friends as an adult and you know what to each their own.
Where are you from? Because I have heard there's no place like Utah... as far as the way the Mormons are. In other States they are different, maybe it's something about being in Utah that does that to them.
One of my good friends is from WI and her family is LDS... to be honest they are some of the most accepting loving people.
They do have a good up bring. I like raising my boys in Utah. There is a strong family value, which I love and appreciate.
A lot of the girls and boys I grew up with spent more time rebelling the religion while looking perfect. I would whether just say, "Hey I am not perfect! I most likely will screw up" and I am the same way about my children.... after all, we are all just human :)
I live in a smallish town just outside of Vegas and on the way to Saint George UT.
All the Mormons here seem to agree that they dont like Utah Mormons they say that they are to stuck up. That seems to be true to me from what I know about them.
The Mormons here are all very family first and always lend a hand to the needed.
I hope to stay friends with my Mormon buds as I get older thats for sure.

MrsChupacabra
04-07-2010, 12:50 AM
Hmm, I have family that lives in St George... I always heard that is where the polygamist hung out. My Aunt is actually married to a guy and his family are polygamist. He keeps asking me if I want to be his second wife.... EWWW!
Yeah, I have heard the same thing about Utah Mormons. That's just what I grew up in. I have to say that I watched my son go through the same thing recently. It just doesn't sit well with me. It makes me pretty angry.
BUT if you put that aside, I have met some wonderful people. with great values, and as far as I am concerned I am glad to carry some of those values with me in my life.