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View Full Version : Park 51, or the ground zero mosque.


El Mariachi
08-04-2010, 05:15 AM
Hopefully, we can get some respectul debate on here.

As many of you may or may not know, there is going to be a Mosque built close to the Ground Zero Area.

Here is an article that I found Interesting
(and take some time to read at the comments, I will point them out later)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100803/us_time/08599200843200

The last legal hurdle to the proposed Islamic center near the site of the World Trade Center has been removed, but ignorance, bigotry and politics are more formidable obstacles. The unanimous vote Tuesday, Aug. 3, by the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission means the building that currently occupies 45-47 Park Place can be torn down, clearing the way for Park51, a project known to its critics as the "Ground Zero Mosque." Criticism spans the gamut, from the ill-informed anguish of those who mistakenly view Islam as the malevolent force that brought down the towers to the ill-considered opportunism of right-wing politicians who see Islam as an easy target.
(Ironically, Islam's roots in New York City are in the area around the site of the World Trade Center, and they predate the Twin Towers: in the late 19th century, a portion of lower Manhattan was known as Little Syria and was inhabited by Arab immigrants - Muslims and Christians - from the Ottoman Empire.)
With city authorities now out of the way, it is the people spearheading the project who must bear the enormous pressure to give up their plans and scrap the building. They are being accused of sympathizing with the men who crashed the planes on 9/11 and of designing the project as, in Newt Gingrich's reckoning, "an act of triumphalism."
And yet Park51's main movers, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and his wife Daisy Khan, are actually the kind of Muslim leaders right-wing commentators fantasize about: modernists and moderates who openly condemn the death cult of al-Qaeda and its adherents - ironically, just the kind of "peaceful Muslims" whom Sarah Palin, in her now infamous tweet, asked to "refudiate" the mosque. Rauf is a Sufi, which is Islam's most mystical and accommodating denomination. (See the very best #Shakespalin tweets.)
The Kuwaiti-born Rauf, 52, is the imam of a mosque in New York City's Tribeca district, has written extensively on Islam and its place in modern society and often argues that American democracy is the embodiment of Islam's ideal society. (One of his books is titled What's Right with Islam Is What's Right with America.) He is a contributor to the Washington Post's On Faith blog, and the stated aim of his organization, the Cordoba Initiative, is "to achieve a tipping point in Muslim-West relations within the next decade, steering the world back to the course of mutual recognition and respect and away from heightened tensions." His Indian-born wife is an architect and a recipient of the Interfaith Center Award for Promoting Peace and Interfaith Understanding. (Can Sufism defuse terrorism?)
Since 9/11, Western "experts" have said repeatedly that Muslim leaders who fit Rauf's description should be sought out and empowered to fight the rising tide of extremism. In truth, such figures abound in Muslim lands, even if their work goes unnoticed by armchair pundits elsewhere. Their cause is not helped when someone like Rauf finds himself being excoriated for some perceived reluctance to condemn Hamas and accused of being an extremist himself. If anything, this browbeating of a moderate Muslim empowers the narrative promoted by al-Qaeda: that the West loathes everything about Islam and will stop at nothing to destroy it. (See Daisy Khan explain the role of women leaders in Islam.)
Rauf and Khan have said Park51 - envisaged as a 15-story structure, including a mosque, cultural center and auditorium - will promote greater interfaith dialogue. The furor over the project only underlines how desperately it is needed.

As you can see, most of media is either puzzled, or trying to bring the building down.

. It is true. 9/11 is still a huge scar in American History which has led to even bigger xenophobic issue. The common american, or at least the common internet poster on chats and forums always posts the classic "oh, we won't leave those islamic motherfuckers build his temple here." or "we will blow the place up as soon as it built". The general concensus is people not wanting the Mosque to be there, because most of them, feel like it is a slap in the face. An insult.

But also, if it is true that we live in a capitalist country, or "the best country in the world", or simply, "The land of the free" (as long as you don't offend others), doesn't the guy that have the money, be able to do what he wants with it? Isn't he free to choose what religion he professes or where he wants to pray. (again, as long as he doesn't stand outside booing others, or putting signs of hate?)

And also. PEOPLE WAN'T TO DESTROY THE FUCKING PLACE. What the fuck! It's a crime of hate.

I'm seriously confused. Just putting my twisted two cents here.

Jitterbug
08-04-2010, 07:16 AM
I am in agreement here. It is a sad state of affairs when leading political figures in this country will publicly pronounce such vapid hate by condeming a Mosque. It is the EXACT same thing as screaming about building a church near the Oklahoma City Bombing because Timothy McVay was a Christian - Or declaring that trenchcoats shouldn't be sold in Littleton, CO because Dylan Clebold (the kid from Columbine) liked to wear them. Tose two examples seem ludicrous, but they make as much sense as saying that a MOSQUE can't be built near the site of the World Trade Centers. The more and more the Conservatives blare this hate-speech, the more and more I hate them.

Jitterbug
08-04-2010, 08:30 AM
Of course, remember that there is always more to the story then you know. There is also a Roman Catholic church that has been trying to get built in the same area that has been denied because of various reasons. Yet the Mosque gets approved very quickly, probably because of the sensitivity around the issue. However, I SERIOUSLY doubt the reason so many Conservatives are screaming about this has anything at all to do with Roman Catholic Churches, and instead started because of their desire to hate someone. It always pays to have an enemy.

El Mariachi
08-17-2010, 03:34 AM
Gotta love Olbermann

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/16/olbermann-ground-zero-mosque_n_684272.html?ref=twitter

El Mariachi
08-22-2010, 08:30 PM
EwaNRWMN-F4&feature=player_embedded...and of course, america is the home of the free, and the brave... where nobody discriminates you...

ColbyTS
08-22-2010, 09:45 PM
When I first heard about this I had no idea what a mosque was, I did know it was a religious building but now I see its a muslim one (and I'm not trying to be racist or biased in any way) I feel a little iffy about the situation. I don't know why but I feel like the terrorists would see that as a moral victory or something

Cam-Dog
08-22-2010, 11:05 PM
I don't see why there has to be any kind of religious building on ground zero but if there is one for any religion there is just as much right for one from another to be there too.

El Mariachi
08-22-2010, 11:09 PM
When I first heard about this I had no idea what a mosque was, I did know it was a religious building but now I see its a muslim one (and I'm not trying to be racist or biased in any way) I feel a little iffy about the situation. I don't know why but I feel like the terrorists would see that as a moral victory or something

It's not on Ground Zero tho. It's in new York. Also, it is not a mosque, it is an islamic community center. An

ColbyTS
08-23-2010, 11:29 AM
It's not on Ground Zero tho. It's in new York. Also, it is not a mosque, it is an islamic community center. An

They should just build like a gigantic memorial or something, I don't think any one religion should inhabit that area.

El Mariachi
08-23-2010, 01:40 PM
They should just build like a gigantic memorial or something, I don't think any one religion should inhabit that area.

Again, it is not on Ground Zero. It's five blocks away from it. There is an actual memorial on the actual ground zero. Around Ground Zero there is a christian parish and a christian church.

ColbyTS
08-23-2010, 02:18 PM
Again, it is not on Ground Zero. It's five blocks away from it. There is an actual memorial on the actual ground zero. Around Ground Zero there is a christian parish and a christian church.

Okay see now I don't have a big deal with it.

Jitterbug
08-23-2010, 03:34 PM
Maybe in light of 9-11 and the fervor to kill that led to Iraq people will start to understand that religious fervor only leads to evil.

Choopy
08-29-2010, 12:18 PM
Who wants my two cents?

Well you get it anyway.

This is one of those issues like abortion and homosexuality. (Like that? carefully designed buzz words to piss people off)

I don't personally agree that it is a good idea. But I feel more strongly that the right exists to do so (or at least should).

However, on the mosque issue, I do agree that it will be spun as a victory of some sort for our enemies. The only way to avoid that would be for someone else to buy that land. Let's start a collection!

Jitterbug
08-29-2010, 01:34 PM
Who wants my two cents?

Well you get it anyway.

This is one of those issues like abortion and homosexuality. (Like that? carefully designed buzz words to piss people off)

I don't personally agree that it is a good idea. But I feel more strongly that the right exists to do so (or at least should).

However, on the mosque issue, I do agree that it will be spun as a victory of some sort for our enemies. The only way to avoid that would be for someone else to buy that land. Let's start a collection!

However, this whole issue wasn't considered important or controversial until the right wing bloggers started turning it into something. No one cared until they chose to make it a hot button issue. It's like how everyone in the US seems to think that border security is more important then our weak GDP. Kind of an odd comparison, I know, but the weak GDP is by far more destructive to the country then the porous border, yet it doesn't play as well on the radio.

Choopy
08-29-2010, 01:41 PM
As the Imam has the right to build there, the right wingers have a right to protest.

The GDP is a whole new thread. But you can thank your buddy Obama for that not being fixed anytime soon.

Jitterbug
08-29-2010, 04:53 PM
As the Imam has the right to build there, the right wingers have a right to protest.

The GDP is a whole new thread. But you can thank your buddy Obama for that not being fixed anytime soon.

LOL! Yeah sure. As if the economy hasn't consistently gotten worse under Republican administrations nearly every time. But you're right, Obama is the reason the GDP is fucked. lol - sure.

ColbyTS
08-29-2010, 10:48 PM
God damn politics pitting friends against each other

Choopy
08-30-2010, 02:09 AM
God damn politics pitting friends against each other

Oh fuck that! I still get my free hummer.....

Choopy
08-30-2010, 02:18 AM
I said nothing about past Presidents. Yeah Bush: war spending, stated the bailouts.... I get it. Clinton had balanced budgets and surpluses.
My point is that it is not going to get any better anytime soon. And Obama does have a lot to do with that.
Look at the deficit spending.

Can't really argue that, can you?

El Mariachi
08-31-2010, 08:30 PM
DImb7jvSbaw&feature=player_embedded

muttonchop
09-06-2010, 03:46 AM
Okay then, I'm going to throw my 2 cents worth in here (with the current excange rate, it's more like 1.5 cents)

As someone observing this from another country, I'll be the first to admit that I may be missing a few details, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

First, it isn't a mosque being built, it's a community centre that also happens to have a prayer room on the top floor. Think of it like a YMCA (Young Muslims and Citizens Association). A Mosque's only purpose is basically as a church of Islam. This community centre , which also includes a swimming pool (not standard fare for a church), will be a meeting point for the local/visiting Muslim population of New York, where community events will be arranged and held.

Second, the building in question is blocks away from it, not "mere feet from the Ground Zero" like some uneducated public/political pundits are spruiking. Now, don't quote me on this next bit, but from what I've heard, you wouldn't be able to even see Ground Zero from even the top-most floor of the building.

Third, and most amazing of all, is the fact that there are already a number of Islamic "Places of worship" and "Community Centres" already in the area, with one having been in existence shortly before the World Trade Centre was initially constructed/completed.(Thanks Mr Olbermann)

So, if it isn't actually a mosque, and it isn't beside the WTC Ground Zero site, or could even be seen from it, and there are already mosque/community centres in the area, whats the problem?

Jitterbug
09-06-2010, 10:27 AM
Okay then, I'm going to throw my 2 cents worth in here (with the current excange rate, it's more like 1.5 cents)

As someone observing this from another country, I'll be the first to admit that I may be missing a few details, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

First, it isn't a mosque being built, it's a community centre that also happens to have a prayer room on the top floor. Think of it like a YMCA (Young Muslims and Citizens Association). A Mosque's only purpose is basically as a church of Islam. This community centre , which also includes a swimming pool (not standard fare for a church), will be a meeting point for the local/visiting Muslim population of New York, where community events will be arranged and held.

Second, the building in question is blocks away from it, not "mere feet from the Ground Zero" like some uneducated public/political pundits are spruiking. Now, don't quote me on this next bit, but from what I've heard, you wouldn't be able to even see Ground Zero from even the top-most floor of the building.

Third, and most amazing of all, is the fact that there are already a number of Islamic "Places of worship" and "Community Centres" already in the area, with one having been in existence shortly before the World Trade Centre was initially constructed/completed.(Thanks Mr Olbermann)

So, if it isn't actually a mosque, and it isn't beside the WTC Ground Zero site, or could even be seen from it, and there are already mosque/community centres in the area, whats the problem?

You are correct on all points. The only reason this is an issue is because the blow hard asshats made it one.

El Mariachi
09-06-2010, 12:17 PM
Okay then, I'm going to throw my 2 cents worth in here (with the current excange rate, it's more like 1.5 cents)

As someone observing this from another country, I'll be the first to admit that I may be missing a few details, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

First, it isn't a mosque being built, it's a community centre that also happens to have a prayer room on the top floor. Think of it like a YMCA (Young Muslims and Citizens Association). A Mosque's only purpose is basically as a church of Islam. This community centre , which also includes a swimming pool (not standard fare for a church), will be a meeting point for the local/visiting Muslim population of New York, where community events will be arranged and held.

Second, the building in question is blocks away from it, not "mere feet from the Ground Zero" like some uneducated public/political pundits are spruiking. Now, don't quote me on this next bit, but from what I've heard, you wouldn't be able to even see Ground Zero from even the top-most floor of the building.

Third, and most amazing of all, is the fact that there are already a number of Islamic "Places of worship" and "Community Centres" already in the area, with one having been in existence shortly before the World Trade Centre was initially constructed/completed.(Thanks Mr Olbermann)

So, if it isn't actually a mosque, and it isn't beside the WTC Ground Zero site, or could even be seen from it, and there are already mosque/community centres in the area, whats the problem?

-It wasn't an issue, until Fox News made it an issue.